Alternative Cures for Gout or Pseudogout

[GoutPal Herbalist]

I have had ME/CFIDS (vaccine caused disease) since before 6 years old. I am a 61-year-old male. I very rarely use doctors since most dispense toxic treatments. I have gone all natural treatments my entire life. I have diagnosed everything myself. I have had about 15 to 20 other conditions that I have cured in the last 10 years naturally.

I went to doctor about 4 months ago and got uric acid level of 6.2.
Doctor said I didn’t have gout.

I have an uncommon type of gout. Mine started gradually. I think it started 5 or 10 years ago. I had slight symptom on arm although I brushed it off. Later I couldn’t reach my arm to scratch my back without hurting. About 2 years ago, my rotator cuff shoulder started hurting. I thought it may be tendonitis caused by repetitive strain but it never healed. About year ago, it hit other shoulder. So 6 months ago I went to doctor and he said it wasn’t gout. I got other shoulder little better with strength exercise. So I thought I was left with tendonitis, tendonosis, bursitis category. In last 3 months I made diagnosis that those weren’t it. My synovial fluid is fine so that was easy to cross off list but i played with it a little. I played with lot of supplements and diet with no improvement. Beef and chicken were a major part of mt diet. So I have gone back to gout or pseudogout diagnosis in last 10 days since I can feel the pain in other areas like muscles near elbow and left knee.

I have gone thru the list below

Rheumatoid arthritis
(I had it before so know what that is like but cured it with borax)

Psoriatic arthritis (Not Likely – symptoms don’t match up)

Connective tissue disease (Not Likely … I feel it in muscles also)

Polymyalgia rheumatica (Not Likely – symptoms don’t match up)

Septic arthritis (Not Likely – symptoms don’t match up)

Pseudogout (DON’T KNOW – what test and kind of doctor does that)

Current Gout Treatment Plan

Life Extension Uric Acid Support supplement 2Xday with food
Natto-Serra 2Xday
Bromelain enteric 500mg 2xday
3200mg malic Acid 3xday with food
Alfalfa in water / drink thru day
I just ordered uric acid meter

I will need to determine whether i have the pseudogout which I hope i don’t have.

Pseudogout (DON’T KNOW – what test and kind of doctor does that)

[GoutPal Herbalist]

Reading just little on PseudoGout, it did say that one shouldn’t take calcium since it triggers the disease. One more thing to experiment with. I take Jarrow’s Ultra Bone Up the last 3 months so will cease that at least for time being. This is the best bone builder supplement out there so very high quality. Will see if that makes any difference. I do take magtein magnesium twice a day. I usually get enough magnesium.

[Keith Taylor]

Pseudogout, as a form of arthritis, is in the realm of the rheumatologist. Personally, I know very little about it. In any case, as you wrote, there are lots of different types of arthritis. Gout is just one, so when not certain, I recommend starting with GoutPal Plan for Arthritis Sufferers.

I know pseudogout is much harder to treat than gout. If the doctor can identify an underlying cause that is treatable, then pseudogout can be cured.

I think gout is most likely. But, I don’t have much info to go on. Most important is uric acid history. Single results are only useful if they’re in the safe or dangerous range. Assuming your scale is mg/dL, you’re in the risky uric acid range.

I’ve just had a look at that page. I can see it needs a summary. More important, it needs to emphasize:

1. You usually get tested first during an attack. Uric acid in the blood usually falls during an attack. This is because some uric acid has crystallized from the blood, and reduces the dissolved amount that is measured by the blood test.
2. You need to establish your baseline uric acid level. Get another blood test once symptoms have resolved.
3. Although the crystallization point for uric acid is deemed to be 6.8mg/dL, this is at normal blood temperature. Crystallization point falls as temperature falls.

That last point is significant in the diagnosis of symptoms. Generally speaking, gout presents first in the big toe. However, from memory, this is only about 60% of cases. It certainly was not the case with me. The first doctor I saw refuted gout because my ankle was affected, not my toe. It actually depends on personal circumstances. Environmental factors, and personal blood circulation situation will determine your “cold spots”. That is where gout will first start to show. If uric acid is not controlled, gout will spread to all joints.

There’s another factor, which is an inflammatory response. That can also vary from person to person. It’s just another factor that indicates how difficult gout diagnosis can be where symptoms are not straightforward.

So, what’s next, William?

I recommend monthly blood tests to get a true picture. I know you want to do this yourself. I just hope you are fastidious and patient enough. It takes time to establish reliable test routines. You have to be meticulous with cleanliness and consistency. I’ll help where I can.

I can also help with the rest of your list of alternative cures for gout:

Life Extension Uric Acid Support supplement 2Xday with food
Natto-Serra 2Xday
Bromelain enteric 500mg 2xday
3200mg malic Acid 3xday with food
Alfalfa in water / drink thru day

But, you are going to have to tell me everything you know about each of those, including how you expect it to affect your health. There are lots of important things you haven’t mentioned. We can deal with those later. The good news is, if that tiny list is all you are doing, I’m confident you can lower uric acid to safe levels with lifestyle changes.

Which alternative cure for gout will you choose?

[Keith Taylor]

I’ve flagged Risky Uric Acid Levels for review.

Who is interested in uric acid levels in the range 6-7mg/dL (350 – 400µmol/L or 0.35-0.4mmol/L)? Please vote for Review Risky Uric Acid Levels by clicking the like button on that topic.

Why is voting important? Because, It’s Your GoutPal!

[GoutPal Herbalist]

Glad to find someone like you. The last time I have been to a doctor before that is 20+ years ago unless i need a test done. I had a zillion symptoms back then but doctors were useless in regard to diagnose and extremely useless in regard to finding cures for things. So many things I had, conventional medicine would claim there is no cure for but I would find a cure thru persistence.

Life Extension Uric Acid Support supplement 2Xday with food

This is a xanthine oxidase inhibitor without side effects. The only thing I am wondering about is dose. I am taking it twice a day but I am thinking that it may be better to take 3 or 4 a day at least until things resolve or until i get meter to assure me i am low enough.

Natto-Serra 2Xday … not just for gout … taken this for last 8+ years

I had peripheral artery disease 10+ years ago. I did cure it with the Nattokinase Serrapeptase combination 8+ yers ago. I think circulation is important in getting any nutrients to locations in the body.

Bromelain enteric 500mg 2xday / Life Extension 5-Lox inhibitor

This I will use this specifically for any inflammation in this condition. I have no inflammation on surface but mine is deeper in muscle. The interesting thing about 5-Lox is that long-term side effects are non existent and I have searched for years.

3200mg malic Acid 3xday with food

This is the major weapon I am using against Gout. The active ingredient in Tart cherries and other things that addresses Gout is Malic Acid. This alkinalizes the blood and dissolves the uric acid crystals. Malic acid will also dissolve gallbladder stones and kidney uric acid stones

Alfalfa in water / drink thru day / Uvi Ursa (just added and will take for a couple weeks)

This is used in chinese medicine for gallbladder, kidney and bladder. Besides needing to dissolve the crystals and pull them into the bloodstream, one needs to excrete them out. This contains potassium and other minerals so it alkalizes the blood and may possibly bind to the uric acid to help excrete them easier. For all I know, the more root problem may be with the liver-gallbladder-kidney-bladder area not removing the uric acid from blood so I need to be due diligent about looking at it from this angle. Dissolving the crystals is useless unless one can excrete them.

The uva ursi is for kidney and bladder also. It needs to be taken with baking soda since it needs an alkaline environment to release it’s active ingredient. It’s used primarily for kidney/urinary tract infections that can’t be solved with mannose. It is very potent for that but should not be taken long term.

I initially tried baking soda but decided that I may be getting too much salt but more importantly drinking too much water would strip minerals out of my body whereas alfalfa would replenish many of the minerals.
Misc

Curcumin BCM 95 … i take this everyday anyway
blueberry leaf … specifically for anthocyanins
dmso … experimented a little. they say it dissolves crystals
renavive … i have some so i can add this to too if i want
celery seed … taken this would be redundant since i am already taking xanthine oxidase inhibitor and kidney stuff

Other things I take

Taurine/Magtein

This manages my Atypical Trigeminal Neuralgia and Occipital Neuralgia relatively well. I have methylation problems so I have severe problems taking methylfolate and methylcobalamin so this inhibits me from doing what i need to do to regenerate sheath around trigeminal nerve.

I take Primaforce Cissus. It immediately helped with pain for shoulder but not enough to cure it. I use it primarily for sleep. It allows me to sleep restfully everyday. This was a good find for me. Plus it has many health benefits.

This is the main things

When I get the uric acid meter, i will try to be meticulous as possible in taking the reading. i will practice. For me, having some assurance that my uric acid levels are low even if there are symptoms is good to know from a psychological perspective since I figure any dissolving of the crystals could cause things to get worse before they get better. It will also assure me that my diet is healthy enough. It will help me detect what things are making it worse.

Diet

I already stay away from HFCS and minimize sugar and chemicals in foods. Studies have said that it is animal protein which increases purine. Not all protein. I should be able to eat this if I can figure out why my body can’t eliminate purine. Since most purine comes from dying cells, I think controlling it thru diet is not real solution. I need to excrete it out

They say pseudogout pain strikes knee first. They say gout pain attacks toe first. I had neither. This doesn’t mean I won’t get struck there eventually but not problem so far.

When crystals do dissolve, does this cause symptoms to get worse and for how long.

When is best time of day to measure uric acid levels

[Keith Taylor]

Wow! Thanks for all that information, William. It’s going to take me a while to go through that list of supplements. I’ll be as quick as I can, but I have to point out I’m on short hours this week, as I have some fatherly duties to perform.

There’s one important thing that I should have mentioned. When we seek gout control through herbal medicine and lifestyle adjustments, a 24-hour urine test is important. That measures uric acid excretion in a day. It tells us if we are an under-excreter or over-producer. It’s not so important for allopurinol or febuxostat users. Those drugs are so effective at limiting uric acid production, they usually help under-excreters as well as over producers. Herbal medicines are less potent, so it helps to know the baseline.

It’s your choice. It isn’t a deal-breaker, but it makes treatment targeting easier.

Diet
Whatever you’ve been reading – stop it now!

Purines and proteins are completely different. Also, you should only ever worry about purines when you are certain you do not carry excess weight. My reason for saying that is the purine content of a few pounds of excess human flesh makes any food intake savings unimportant.

Protein is a wonderful natural uricosuric (i.e. it promotes uric acid excretion). However, balance is crucial. We cannot take a bad diet and make it good by adding low-animal-purine protein sources. We need to take a fundamentally healthy diet, and tweak it for better gout control. That means, I need more information.

I need to know your height, weight, and activity levels. Do you exercise regularly? If so, how many hours per week? I also need to understand what you eat. It’s fantastic you avoid chemical additives. I know that it can be tedious keeping a food diary, but analysis of your current diet is vital to me. One option would be to send me photos of your food bills. Whatever is easiest for you. I plan to create a specific sub-forum for this project, so maybe you can just post what you eat there each day.

Gout/Pseudogout symptoms
Whoever wrote “They say pseudogout pain strikes knee first. They say gout pain attacks toe first.” doesn’t understand.

Statistically, pseudogout tends to start in larger joints. Gout tends to start in smaller joints. But, the reasons are not fully understood. We know more about gout. We know that temperature is an important factor. That is a combination of external temperature and blood circulation. Poor circulation in some joints can cause internal temperature to be low. That encourages uric acid crystals to form there first. But, they will spread to every joint.

The only way to distinguish gout and pseudogout is to analyze joint fluid. There are improvements to scanning technologies that will make this easier. But, few gout sufferers have access to DECT. Ultrasound is more accessible, but it relies on people having the right training to distinguish urate crystal patterns from calcium crystal patterns.

Dissolving uric acid crystals
“does this cause symptoms to get worse and for how long”
It’s a personal process that depends on your gout history, and current uric acid levels. In theory, gout attacks caused by lowering uric acid should be less in herbal medicine/lifestyle. I say this because levels during treatment are unlikely to drop as quickly as they would with allopurinol. Just as with gout attacks from high uric acid, it’s a numbers game.

As uric acid crystals dissolve, the immune system coating tends to drop. This reveals partially dissolved crystals. If the coatings of a few hundred uric acid crystals drop, we are unlikely to notice symptoms. If several thousand become exposed, we get a gout attack. That is made more complicated if dissolving uric acid crystals raise blood uric acid levels. New crystals forming might also trigger attacks. Blood test results are critical to understanding this process.

So, it’s impossible to say how long.

I have a very loose guideline that says recovery should take one month for every year you have had gout. There are lots of personal factors that will affect that. But, in your case William, we’re a million miles from that. The truth is, no matter how much we both believe you have gout, you don’t actually have a diagnosis. I’m going to stick my neck out and match your opening:
“I have an uncommon type of gout. Mine started gradually. i think it started 5 or 10 years ago.”

We have started an uncommon approach to gout control. We’ve started gradually. I think I can be confident we’ll resolve the problem within 5 to 10 years.

It should be sooner than 5 years, but my confidence in that depends on our progress. Ask me again in a month or so.

Uric Acid Test Timing
It’s important to be consistent. Choose the most convenient time of day. Always eat at the same time before test time. Most convenient would be to test after you wake, before breakfast. But, do you tend to have regular sleeping/eating patterns? This is just one of many factors why I said you need to be meticulous.

In some respects, it doesn’t matter. That’s because you are best to measure averages. I.e. test every day, but focus on weekly average. The average should ignore any abnormally high, or low, results. The average is the truest picture you will get. It must be below 6mg/dL. In reality, I might accept an occasional 6.1 or 6.2, if the average is below 6.

What you must never do is associate your test result with something you consumed the previous day. If you suspect an association, it needs fastidious, scientific testing.

What Next?
I have to say, William, you will be my first project for gout control by herbal/lifestyle adjustments, if we are successful. I tried it myself, and could not maintain the discipline. Daily allopurinol is the easy option for someone like me. Also, I trust allopurinol manufactured by controlled labs in my own country. At least, I trust that far more than untested supplements promoted using unreliable pseudoscience from the backstreets of Hyderabad. (Just being honest, so you understand me better).

Other gout forum members have tried natural gout treatment, and given up. You seem very committed, so there is hope. If I’m to help, we need to continue an almost daily conversation. You’ll have to get used to my tendency to analyze everything in great detail. Are you up for it?

Whatever becomes of this, William, thank you for some interesting thoughts and a great discussion. 🙂

[GoutPal Herbalist]

You need to handle things in your own life first. You do what you can do.

If I had classic gout, I could diagnose it myself. Going to a doctor for some testing would be easy. If I have atypical gout or whatever, finding a doctor who knows what they are doing is not that easy. There are relatively few doctors who know anything about ME/CFIDS. Even though I had the disease 55+ years, I’d be hard put to recommend any to someone else. In most cases, one needs to travel to find one. Since I have had so many medical conditions, I run across many people who still can’t get a diagnosis or proper treatment even if it is a more familiar condition. So it is just not easy to walk out the door and go to a doctor. Then we get into pseudogout and that complicates things even further. Finding that doctor who thinks outside the box is not easy.

I have had high cholesterol my entire life but I ignore it since I know that it isn’t important but most doctors get brainwashed by the medical schools to think it needs to be lowered. Cholesterol is the body trying to repair itself. I even ignore the high blood pressure warnings outside of kidney function. People have been very seriously damaged by Statins drugs to boot. Even dentists are dangerous.

I’d say most doctors and dentists are sociopaths and they are driven by greed. Others are brainwashed and stick their heads into the sand. On top of that, the powers that be have WEAPONIZED conventional medicine just like they have weaponized the water, food and vaccines. The state medical license board is used to threaten or destroy any doctor who goes against this weaponization. I don’t view visiting a doctor as someone who is going to heal me. The kind of doctors I’d like to visit are deemed alternative so not covered by Medicare. Neither are their tests. I rarely use medicare except for chiropractors but I don’t even need them much anymore. It took me 4 decades before I realized I even had the trigeminal neuralgia because it was atypical and I had to do that on my own. Worse, their treatments would have been barbaric if I let them treat me. Most people live unaware of what is happening around them. The planet is a very dangerous place to get health treatment. I need to be expert at finding a true expert who knows something about something.

I remember reading somewhere that uric acid is highest upon awakening from sleep. My sleep patterns are fairly consistent most of the time. So I will do the test when I wake up before eating. I will take an average and try to eat at same times. I’d like to target a reading between 4 and 5.

My body weight is deceptive. I am 6’1″ (i shrank an inch). My weight is usually been around 255-260. That is a comfortable weight for me. Not sure what current weight is. I am slim. When I was 268, someone said to me that I look like I lost weight. Inactivity does not cause weight gain. I was swimming regularly about 6 months ago about 2 or 3 times a week. I have been inactive the last 6 months because I have been focused on researching and trying to solve health problems. I also don’t want to aggravate something until I understanding what is causing the problem. So I am hesitant about doing exercise until I know I am healing to managing the problem.

I suspect a lot of gout is being diagnosed as tendonitis because it is atypical. The alternative cures for tendonitis look suspiciously like gout cures although probably milder forms of gout.

>What you must never do is associate your test result with something you >consumed the previous day. If you suspect an association, it needs >fastidious, scientific testing.

this is something which will have to be approached from an empirical and self experimental perspective. scientific testing is not practical. i haven’t wrapped my brain around this issue yet so need to get some uric acid data first.

I think my first major symptom of gout was when I had difficulty reaching my hand from below my back and scratching it. Tendonitis supposedly has this symptom also. Before that I may have had some very slight pain on my upper arm but that is more vague.

I was thinking about that 24-hour urine test also as something that could tell me a lot. I need to know if the uric acid is actually getting out and whether I am an under producer or over producer. I figured that since i am aging, my body should be producing more. I read that 50% of people aged 90 have gout. Probably from all the dying cells in their body.

I have been minimizing my diet until I get the uric acid meter. I have been eating nuts like cashews, almonds, walnuts. I have also been eating sunflower seeds. Maybe little grain. I drink water with some alfalfa powder in it. These I eat as small meals since they are low in purines and contain some nonmeat protein too. Since they contain phytic acid, they can bind to minerals and never get absorbed. I add a main meal to that. Like I had shaved beef mixed with cheddar cheese, onions, peppers etc in a burrito shell so essentially a fajita.

I will edit this to add more info

I will look into this 24 hour urine test. Seems like next logical step.

I’ve come across the term “frozen shoulder” but that doesn’t look plausible. Another thing I have just realized is that on one shoulder, I notice that there is a spot on my bicep muscle towards shoulder that has main pain when I use that muscle for any shoulder movement. I also just realized I can rotate my shoulder more easily if I don’t use the bicep muscle or stretch it. I also remember that one shoulder area/bicep was fine until I slept on it because the other shoulder/bicep was in pain. Maybe focusing in on anti inflammatory stuff i am taking could heal it to where it is functional. Maybe nerve impingement too. I could have a chiropractor look at it.

… I found another spot on tricep muscle near shoulder.

There are usually more underlying causes even if it did restore function. Problems that you don’t have when your younger almost always have a deeper cause if your getting them at older age. I think the stat that 50 percent of 90 year olds have gout is a telling thing fact. Things break down in the body when you age. In the meantime, work around is fine until one can understand and address the deeper causes. I think there are many milder kinds of gout that aren’t being detected.

Just handle your own shit first.

[Keith Taylor]

Thanks again William. Keep the info coming, but let’s have a bit of organization.

Your early paragraphs in last response are interesting. But, not particularly gout-related. Please consider writing more in General Discussion. That helps me get to know you. I hope it might also encourage others to write there.

Let’s just say that doctors are a gout control resource. Useful for tests and safety checks. For tests, I believe there’s an American Culture of walk-in labs. Are these feasible for you, William?

Although your gout diagnosis is not 100%, your uric acid is high. So, I believe it is sensible to lower it. Most gout sufferers have other conditions that contribute to the malaise. Maybe your shoulder is something different. It won’t harm to lower uric acid as far below 6 as possible.

My next step is to set up a subforum dedicated to you, William. I’m going to organize personal forums by Gout Group. Which Gout Group do you most identify yourself with, William?

[Keith Taylor]

By the way, William, it’s perfectly OK to refuse a label. I can start a sub-forum for Gout Individuals within the personal gout forums.

[GoutPal Herbalist]

Even if it turns out I didn’t have gout, learning about it is still useful since i am aging. and many people accumulate these crystals with no symptoms. i wouldn’t want them to keep building up in me. it still wouldn’t preclude it either to at least some minor degree either.

keeping an eye on uric acid levels and keeping them at lower levels is useful. since i have compromised immune system, i try to head off problems before they get to a major stage. maybe too much sugar and hfcs likely drives gout more than meat purines drives gout in many people or leads to it.

i did come across a link posting where a lot of people have the bicep problem and they dont know what it is. doctors and surgery were useless. some solved it with some type of stretching/exercise but i have to research that to understand it more. it would explain to some extent how i exercised my other arm to be more functional but i didnt do anything to heal the tricep part. so i will have to study the bicep/tricep aspect on a deeper level for now. things like ultrasound could help. maybe use my tooth brush

i know i dont have frozen shoulder or calcific tendonitis. the cure for that would likely be magnesium. i take magnesium every day for years.

i did find doctors that diagnose pseudogout but appointments with them take months to get so useless. these type of problems outside the box are probably not within that box where they can give useful advice.

[GoutPal Herbalist]

I started doing eccentric exercise for triceps.

I did my first uric acid test with meter. I inserted the test strip
but it took me an hour to figure out how to get that blood and put on
strip. i finally found that the pinky finger provides enough blood. Other fingers just weren’t working. So don’t know if delay effected the test. Tomorrow morning will be real test.

The test result was 244 mmol which is equivalent to 4.1 mg. Maybe I read it wrong. I thought i put switch to left on mg. Tomorrow will be better test.

I notice that control solution for uric acid is no longer available. What’s going on with that. It would be nice to have.

[GoutPal Herbalist]

I took measurement again and uric acid level is -LO- which means below 3 mg. Who knows if that a correct. I’ll take another one on wednesday. I’ll probably have to take 5 measurements to really gauge what is going on with uric acid levels and perfect going through the test process.

I tried drawing the blood again and noticed that I need to exercise my arms a tiny bit with rubber band to get the blood flowing enough.

my thoughts …

if i still maintain low level, i will also need to measure it when I am just eating more normally and not taking supplement to see how much it rises. if it does, i can just experiment from there.

[GoutPal Herbalist]

Got another -LO- reading. I will lower the dose of malic acid and not take supplement that neutralizes enzyme.

So far, the trend is that I don’t have gout which is good. If I get 3 more low readings then I will assume it isn’t an issue.

[Keith Taylor]

I thought the LO reading meant the droplet size was too low to test ? ❓

I could be very wrong with that, so best to check with the manufacturers.

Some people find it useful to get a doctor’s blood test to compare results. I’ve a vague memory of one gout sufferer who persuaded his doctor to test a drop of his venous blood draw on his home uric acid test strip. That might be a false memory, as I’ve tried searching for it to no avail. Maybe it was just too long ago.

[GoutPal Herbalist]

-LO- definitely is a reading below 3.0 mg. That’s what instructions say. I do feel confident the droplet size was big enough. I will make droplet size much bigger the next reads I do. I am becoming more comfortable taking readings.

Any place to get that test control solution. It doesn’t seem to be available any longer on amazon. That would at least validate that the meter is working correctly. Any idea why it is not available.

In the meantime, I am going to a kinesiologist and she seems to have some ideas of what’s causing it.

[Keith Taylor]

“Any idea why it is not available.”

I don’t know which brand of home uric acid meter you bought.

[GoutPal Herbalist]

I bought the EasyLife meter. Like to know why they don’t make test solution available.

I am continuing to test below 3.0. It just gives me LO reading.

I quit my gout protocol many weeks ago but just take a couple malic acid tablets once a day. I will make it part of a routine. It makes
stomach more acid but blood more alkaline. I’d rather take that than something like ACV. I like that effect so something positive came out of it.

[Keith Taylor]

Easy Life Uric Acid Control Solution is definitely available for Uric Acid Meter test strips. Each time a batch of test strips is manufactured, it is given a code. Solutions are available for at least 6 current batches (8221, 8290, 8334, 8336, 8479, and 8497).

What does your supplier say? Have you told them the code on your uric acid test strips, and asked for the specific control solution for that batch? I warned about the need to be fastidious and meticulous.

I strongly recommend you:

• Forget the home testing routine.
• Arrange a uric acid blood test with your doctor, or other medical facility.
• Get all uric acid test result history from your doctor.
• Post dates and test results here.

That way we can make a definite decision about the scale of your uric acid problem, if any. Then, we can plan a way to control your uric acid, if such control is necessary.

All I have at the moment, is a single result of 6.2 mg/dL around March 2016. A single result has very little value in the Risky Uric Acid Range. We need to know if that is a representative result, or if you are usually higher or lower.

[Author]

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